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No links, what's the point? OK veterans, I'll show you mine, if you'll...
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In October 1977, I joined Uncle Sugar's Big Grey Canoe Club. For those of you not aware of '60s street slang, that's the U.S. Navy. From my arrival at the airport in Orlando FL, for boot camp, I was aware of gays, homosexuals, queers, lesbians, dikes, etc, among the Naval personnel, new and old. I do not remember anyone questioning it, or mentioning it. Other than the typical, dumbass, macho jerks who always mention it. Most of whom I expect are wrestling with their own leanings.
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I can think of no duty station to which I was attached, where there were NO GLAAD people. It just never happened. I spent a week, on TAD orders once working on a tugboat, with a 6 person crew. The boat captain was an old, female bosuns mate chief, who was an old fashioned bull dike, lesbian. And? None of her permanent crew cared, why, should, I? I'm sure, as within civilian life, there were MORE who were less obvious about their sexual preferences, and who kept it hidden. I know of two instances where sailors with families traded wives and families AFTER becoming pile party partners, where sexual actions crossed heterosexual lines. I'll go so far as to say that my life experience tells me that there were gays in the military as long ago as 1947. I had an uncle, who left my aunt, and two small daughters in NYC, to move to San Francisco, in the mid '50s, and it wasn't for the sourdough bread!! He joined the Army Air Corps in 1947, so that makes 52 years at least, where bi-sexual men were in uniform.
Having said all that, would someone PUHlease tell me of even ONE situation where force cohesiveness, or unit effectiveness was affected by any of this?! How is it that guys giving head causes their trigger finger, or radar scope reading abilities to be disabled? Why would women liking women keep them from being good tank mechanics, x-ray technicians or drill sergeants? Show me proof.
Hey, we're fighting two wars currently, and we have to stay focused on that. IMHO, this latest round of foolishness over gays in the military is designed by the Obamanites to take our mind off the tasks at hand. Amadmaninajacket, and his cohorts fired a satellite into orbit overnight. It could conceivably carry nuclear weapons next. Radical Islamofascists worldwide have sworn a death oath to kill us and imprison our children. China owns more of our country than do we right now.
And somebody in D.C. decided that THE biggest headache to our military today is whether two guys in uniform might sleep together?! Give me a break would you. I'd rather see gays willingly join the military than see ANY draft re-instituted. Someone who wants to do "X" job will invariably do a better job than someone forced to do "X" job.
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This is another one of those areas where MY personal beliefs tread on those of someone else uselessly, if I push the issue. There are no historically accurate or accountable times when gays weren't in the military, those of us who were there know it, and there are no viable accounts of it being a problem.
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And just for the record, I've never attended a segregated school either, so I don't understand racism either. I'm Catholic by birth and schooling, but haven't planned on burning any Jews or Protestants at the stake. I guess at the heart of it, I'm willing to accept anyone for their own personal beliefs and actions, instead of grouping them and rubber stamping them. Am I twisted or what!?
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Schteveo
13 comments:
2 queers were in a foxhole when one said, "don't woory. I got your back"
...and that joke goes back to the original tunnel sappers in the 11th or 12th century, to be sure.
I'm looking for facts. And not this kind,
Nuclear submarines are the only ships in the force, that are approved to go out with 300 crewmen, and come back with 150 happy couples!
so Steve-o, I am not expressing an opinion but just asking questions.
on a Navy ship who will the gays shower with? since straights have the right not to be sexually harassed, will the gay men shower with the straight women? will the lesbians shower with the straight men? or does the navy have to build more heads for the gays?
then, do the gay men shower only with other gay me? etc.
same for sleeping quarters on ships...
This is obviously a touchy issue. On the one hand, i don't believe gays should serve in the military, especially in combat. This is a belief held by many people, in many nations, and for a variety of reasons. But realistically speaking, i see no way of totally eliminating them.
But there's also a part of me that believes they should serve, simply as a way to repay this country for all it's done for them, such as special laws and protections not granted the rest of us.
IMO, i think the underlying problem many critics have is, will the attitudes of gays serving change when they're given the green light to "be themselves", meaning, will they "really" come out.
Most people are aware of how radical and in-your-face gays can be, especially when they're making demands for something. Although i realize that attitude doesn't apply to all gays, it does apply to many. So the question for many people is, will it now become more obvious in the military, and if so, how much damage will it do.
P.S.
I also believe in the long run, the decision will make a lot of discrimination and sexual harassment lawyers very happy. And rich!
Bluish one,
it was my experience that naked men IGNORED other naked men on the ship. I know of not a single incident of harassment, in-the-ass-ment or any other-ments, onboard, man to man. It wasn't until I went to Norfolk, where the USS Pegasus had women, that the first cases of fighting for a "mate", meant beating up some other guy in the workspace, over yet another sailor, who happened to be female.
I know of three guys who rented a house out in town in San Diego, that everyone would have said were gay. But they never "gayed" on the ship that I know of.
As for sleeping, a "rack" on a ship is not comfy for one squid, two would never work. It's smaller in there than in a coffin. And I know one of the guys who had a rack right across from mine, swings both ways or did. I think he's sworn off women now. But I never cared, and I don't know of anyone who did.
And frankly and finally, I have NO desire to know what it is that YOU do, or anyone else does, for sex. Likewise I had no desire to know what he, his wife, and their boyfriend did. It simply never came up. My sons tell me that it still does not.
Honestly, I have more problems with women in uniform than gay men. A ship, even a bird farm, is too small a community to have 10% of the population be female. If they want to have ALL female crews, go for it, but I'm not into that other ratio. It's proven not to work over the last 30 years.
Pregnancy and divorce rates are higher in mixed crews. STD's are higher in mixed crews. Early departures from service for non-military needs is higher in mixed crews. Feeding a system with statistics like that is social engineering, not national security. If it happened at a university, among people of similar ages, they'd padlock the gates, lock up the administration and burn the curriculum.
OT - sort of - Speaking of sex(es) in uniform, click my 'Jimbo' for a slide show (with good music) of the IDF. (For you cretins - that's Isreali Defense Forces.)
Don't worry - it's rated PG.
It may also answer the age old question about why Jewish women have the reputation of dominating the family unit.
women with guns!!!
no, no, that is just wrong!!
yo stevedore, I basically agree with you
my question is -- is it all right for the military to force you to be naked next to someone who admires your junk??
if that was tried in high school or college gym classes the lawyers would get rich...why will it be OK in the military??
on a Navy ship who will the gays shower with? since straights have the right not to be sexually harassed,
So tell the gay men to not sexually harass the straight men under penalty of punishment, and be done with it. How hard is that? They do the same thing when women are on the ship, and it doesn't seem to be too big a problem...
On the one hand, i don't believe gays should serve in the military, especially in combat.
Why not? I'm guessing that the whole "sex shouldn't be on the front lines" thing is probably what you'll come back with, which is a totally valid statement to which i wholeheartedly agree...
but...
Do you think that gay men cannot control themselves? That they can't follow orders when they are told to do their jobs instead of fooling around on the lines? Isn't it a little offensive (and untrue) to essentially say that a gay man should not be in combat because he can't control his sexual urges?
To that, I must ask you how you think the Israelis deal with mixed sex units on the front lines. It hasn't ever really bothered them any, because their soldiers follow orders when they are told to not be fooling around instead of doing their jobs. Why do you think gay men would not be able to do the same?
they're given the green light to "be themselves", meaning, will they "really" come out.
And if it is found to be damaging to unit cohesiveness, or harrassment of other troppers, or, or, or...
well, the precedent exists and has existed in the military for hundreds of years that any problem affecting the unit should be dealt with - and it will be.
I just don't think it is right that a good, solid, yet gay soldier should have to live int he shadows and in fear of losing his job for being found out - if he is doing his job, his gayness shouldn't matter. If his gayness is flamboyant or unchecked to the point that it is effecting his ability to do his job or is hurting his unit, that is easily dealt with case-by-case, as most behavioral problems in the military are, and shouldn't need a military-wide policy to deal with it.
Gee Goob, you make it all sound so easy. I hope someone keeps track of the discrimination lawsuits, because there's gonna be tons of them, just like in civilian life. In fact, even more because they know the govt. will stand behind them. Every time a gay "feels" he/she/it is being discriminated against, or "feels" like they're being threatened or harassed in some way, out come the lawyers. What's going to happen when they "feel" they're being ordered to do some dirty job simply because they're gay? Lawyer!
But it'll be fun to watch. Every time the social engineers get busy forcing people to do things they don't want to do, the results are usually ugly and sometimes funny.
Would this have happened if he teased you or me?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/02/04/2010-02-04_air_force_sarge_stripped_of_rank.html
"...is it all right for the military to force you..."
Nobody gets forced, we have an all volunteer force and don't ask don't tell has been in effect since 1993. So anyone who joined in the last 15 years should KNOW the guy / gal next to them might be gay. And I'll ask this, as I always do,
Are you REGULARLY propositioned by gays in locker rooms, or gyms?
Then WHY would you be, in a similar situation in the military? Is your assumption that gays in the military will have LESS control, than their mincing liberal friends in a gym, or at the Y...M...C...A!!!? You're NOT going to see guys leaving "A Chorus Line", to join the Long Grey Line. Not enough flash in those drab uniforms.
Listen, I've never been confronted by anyone, of penis ownership, while in uniform, who offered to be my personal proctologist. I have, in civilian life been made that offer. Should I rejoin the Navy to keep that from happening?
And the idea that there will be some groundswell of lawsuits was voiced in the '80s and '90s too, where's the tsunasmi? It never occurred, and I don't think it will.
Here's something many of you overlook, did you realize that under the current UCMJ, it's illegal for heterosexuals to have sex outside marriage? It rarely, if ever gets charged, but it's there and has been for the duration of the UCMJ.
And again, the assumption the gays are more sexual active than heteros is unfounded to my knowledge. It's the same kind of thinking that calls marijuana a gateway drug. I don't believe that if you suck one, you'll be overwhelmingly drawn, to the point of non-control, to suck them all!!
And again, WHY do we spend so much time wondering about some else's sex life? I only make it an issue when gays want to tell me that THEY are a better candidate for a job or a home loan than I am, BECAUSE they are gay.
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