And here it is…
Link #1 – Slate Article. Great opinion piece by a guy that is totally biased as hell. Useless for anything other than enlightening us to his opinion, because little of it has any basis in fact, and those points that do have factual basis are irrelevant to somehow blaming the Republican party for this meltdown. Again, subprime mortgages were made possible by democratic fiat, not republican. That one company failed without offering subprime mortagages is irrelevant. Companies fail all of the time for many different reasons. They probably would have failed anyway, crisis or not.
As an aside, his claims that the CRA did not force banks to provide no money down, underwriting out the window, risky loans are true. However, the CRA did require that the banks loan to the poor and minorities, and THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT DONE IS TO TAKE THE STEPS ABOVE! That is like saying that seatbelt laws don’t require you to install seat belts in your old antique car, but if you are caught driving without a seatbelt, you’ll be fined. Yes, the law didn’t say that they had to provide risky loans, it just said that they had to provide loans to poor and minorities. To do so required that they had to provide risky loans!
Link #2 – Identical to link 1. Even if I concede that the CRA wasn’t the momentum needed to get the ball rolling on this catastrophe, there is still nothing in here to indicate that the republicans had anything to do with instigating the crisis. This was all happening during a democratic majority congress, and a democratic administration, too, so if you want to argue that inaction equals responsibility, then we all share the blame. This thing was real back when dems held congress and the POTUS, too, and they did nothing. Inaction means you can be blamed for one thing, and one thing only. Your inaction. You can’t be blamed for creating the problem, when the momentum for the problem was started by someone else, namely, the democrats. And, as I’ve pointed out several times, it was REPUBLICANS that tried to do something about this 2 years ago, but they were blocked by, you guessed it, the DEMOCRATS. So who is really to blame here?
Link #3 –
• Did the 1977 legislation, or any other legislation since, require banks to not verify income or payment history of mortgage applicants? Totally irrelevant. In order to loan to the people in question, this had to become a standard. The CRA demanded that you loan to these people, it did not say how. That it left that part out does not mean that it did not require it. How else can you loan to a poor person with insufficient income and no payment history? Again, it is like saying that you have to mow the lawn, but saying that does not imply that you are allowed to get out the lawn mower. It is a stupid argument.
• 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject comprehensive federal supervision; another 30% were made by banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. How was this caused by either CRA or GSEs ?
By the same logic, I must ask “how was any of this caused by the republicans?” The subprime industry was created by the CRA. They did not exist before the CRA. That some businesses were selling these products of the CRA, even though they were not under it’s bylaws, is irrelevant. The fact is, these are DEMOCRAT creations. They were being sold during the democratic majority and administration during the 90’s, so any argument that inaction equals guilt should be spread evenly between both parties. Again, you’ve failed to show that the republicans are at fault here.
• What about "No Money Down" Mortgages (0% down payments) ? Were they required by the CRA? Fannie? Freddie?
Again, totally irrelevant. That they were not required by the act does not mean that they were not necessary to live up to the demands of the act. Try mowing the lawn without a lawn mower, and you’ll get my point.
• Explain the shift in Loan to value from 80% to 120%: What was it in the Act that changed this traditional lending requirement? See the above point. Again, you cannot mow the lawn without a lawn mower, and you cannot make required loans to individuals that cannot come up with 80% loan to value without changing the requirement. • Did any Federal legislation require real estate agents and mortgage writers to use the same corrupt appraisers again and again? How did they manage to always come in at exactly the purchase price, no matter what? And this was the republicans fault, how?
• Did the CRA require banks to develop automated underwriting (AU) systems that emphasized speed rather than accuracy in order to process the greatest number of mortgage apps as quickly as possible? It did not, but it did require a quota of CRA mortgages. Could this possibly have required an automated system to keep up with quotas? I simply don’t know, but again, I cannot figure how this was the republican’s fault. This was all happening back during the dem’s day under Clinton, too, and they did nothing but encourage it, per Snorpht’s article.
• How exactly did legislation force Moody's, S&Ps and Fitch to rate junk paper as Triple AAA? How, exactly, did the republicans force… … to rate junk paper as Triple AAA?
• What about piggy back loans? Were banks required by Congress to lend the first mortgage and do a HELOC for the down payment -- at the same time? Again, totally irrelevant. That this was not required by the act does not mean that this was not necessary to live up to the demands of the act. How else can a person with no assets, no credit, and no payment history come up with a down payment? You have to meet the requirements of the act, how can you do it without cutting corners to get it done? Try mowing the lawn without a lawn mower, and you’ll get my point.
• Internal bank memos showed employees how to cheat the system to get poor mortgages prospects approved that shouldn't have been: Titled How to Get an "Iffy" loan approved at JPM Chase. (Was circulating that memo also a FNM/FRE/CRA requirement?)
No, it wasn’t, but it was probably necessary to live up to the requirements of the act. How many more times am I going to have to say this? That it wasn’t specifically required does not mean that, in order to meet the demands of the act, it was not NECESSARY. The CRA didn’t demand any of this, but to get what it DID demand, all of this was necessary!
• The four biggest problem areas for housing (by price decreases) are: Phoenix, Arizona; Las Vegas, Nevada; Miami, Florida, and San Diego, California. Explain exactly how these affluent, non-minority regions were impacted by the Community Reinvesment Act ?
Give me a break. Seriously? Those cities probably have the highest rates of minority poverty of any city in the US! Ever been to any of these cities and seen the migrant workers begging for work ont eh side of the road? I have.
• Did the GSEs require banks to not check credit scores? Assets? Income?
No, it did not, but to meet the demands of the act, this became necessary. I’m getting tired of repeating myself. Need I go on?
• What was it about the CRA or GSEs that mandated fund managers load up on an investment product that was hard to value, thinly traded, and poorly understood
Uh, lets see, how about the requirement to loan lots of money to people that they would never, ever have loaned money to before (hard to value), that did not have a market because no one ahd ever done it before because it was a bad, bad, bad idea(thinly traded), and since it was a bad idea, and no one had ever done it before, the loans were poorly understood. That pretty much sums up the requirements of the CRA right there, doesn’t it? So, to answer te question, EVERYTHING about the CRA required all of those things. It was the whole point of the CRA to begin with!
• What was it in the Act that forced banks to make "interest only" loans? Were "Neg Am loans" also part of the legislative requirements also?
How else can a poor person, who they are now required to give a mortgage to, afford the mortgage? Again, that it did not specifically require it does not mean that it wasn’tnecessary to get the job done.
• Consider this February 2003 speech by Countrywide CEO Angelo Mozlilo at the American Bankers National Real Estate Conference. He advocated zero down payment mortgages -- was that a CRA requirement too, or just a grab for more market share, and bad banking?
I think I’ve broached this one enough. That the CRA did not require it does not mean that it wasn’t necessary
I would very much like to see what you would suggest the banks had done to live up to the CRA’s requirements. Give fixed-rate, 30 year mortgages with 10% down payment, as was typical, established practice pre-CRA? None of the intended targets could afford that! The bank would have been in violation of the CRA. They HAD to do these things to meet CRA requirements. That the CRA did not have verbage specifically requiring these things is totally irrelevant. They were necessary to get the job done, like a lawn mower is necessary to mow the lawn. When my Dad told me to mow the lawn as a kid, it was pretty much implied that it was necessary to use the lawn mower. He didn’t have to specifically tell me to use the lawn mower to mow the lawn. Same goes here.
Link #4 – Irrelevant to the discussion, and if Fannie and Freddie were really so immune to the CRA-created crisis, why did the federal government have to seize them a few weeks back? This doesn’t make any sense, is not applicable to reality. Also, that there were many businesses trying to cash in on this FAKE market created by a democrat-backed act is not the republican’s fault, it is the fault of the dems who created the FAKE subprime market to begin with. How can you argue otherwise?
Link #5 – So what? They gave Obama a bunch of money, also, and all of this happened under the “leadership” of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. That it was a republican think tank they paid means only that they couldn’t find a democratic think tank to tell them what they wanted to hear. They were interested in free-market perspective, not what they would get from a democratic institution, I fear.
Also, did you notice that your article pretty much sums up what I’ve been saying all along in the following:
“In the midst of DCI's yearlong effort, Hagel and 25 other Republican senators pleaded unsuccessfully with Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., to allow a vote.
"If effective regulatory reform legislation ... is not enacted this year, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole," the senators wrote in a letter that proved prescient.
In the end, there was not enough Republican support for Hagel's bill to warrant bringing it up for a vote because Democrats also opposed it and the votes of some would be needed for passage. The measure died at the end of the 109th Congress.”
Emphasis added.
Okay, smarty-pants, so tell me again how this was caused by the republicans?
14 comments:
Gosh, guys, I'm sorry. Blogger ate every single lick of formatting in this thing, even my emphasis at the end where it said the Democrats blocked efforts to do something about this problem before it happened. I know it is hard to read, but I don't have any way to edit now. Sorry, again!
That being said, HLF, your links came up pretty short, I think. It seems that the only argument that anyone can come up with is that the CRA did not demand risky lending practices. It only demanded that poor people and minorities were given mortgages. Of course, there is no way that any of this can be done without the issuance of risky mortgages, since none fo the subject population could possibly afford a loan given under "good" lending practices.
So that it did not specifically call for these practices is irrelevant. They were NECESSARY to meet the requirements of the CRA. To say therwise is like mandating a person mow the lawn, but then claim that your mandate never said that they had to use a lawn mower.
How the hell do you mow a lwan without a mower? How the hell do you lend money to people who cannot afford it without disregarding the rules to safe lending?
Dems caused it, HLF, I'm sorry to say. The only thing you can blame the republicans for is not finding a way to do something when they had power, because once they saw the problem, they tried to do something and were blocked by the democrats, further indicating their complicity.
Prove me wrong.
Goober -
It drank the Kool-Aid - it's mind is gone. Even I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until it began insulting "Annie the Reasonable".
You're trying to debate a cat turd.
Well - okay - I'll admit a cat turd is smarter and has more compassion.
And smells better.
Not to mention better looking with a larger vocabulary.
Proverbs 26:4 When arguing with fools, don't answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are.
Or as C-Bug woud say - "pearls before swine..."
Yes, you can edit your post. Go to sign in apge and "dashboard". Click on "edit posts"
Oh...and I blame typepad. I think Bush owns it.
LOL! On the lighter side, check this out:
Four major banks, including one that collapsed, two that received federal bailout money and one that filed for bankruptcy this past September, paid former President Clinton $2.1 million for 13 speeches he delivered on their behalf between 2004-2007, according to Senate financial disclosure statements filed by Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.).
Citigroup paid Bill Clinton $700,000; Goldman Sachs paid $950,000; Lehman Brothers paid $300,000 and Merrill Lynch paid $175,000 to the former president for speeches during that time period. Sen. Clinton's 2008 financial disclosure reports are not yet available.
The old 'kool-aid' speech REALLY helped these guys, huh?
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=39902
Clinton should return the money. It's our money now. Do we get a vote?
QUOTABLE QUOTES
The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself..
-- Ben Franklin
Geez Goober, we can go back and forth for months with you dismissing my links to reputable news sources and me rejecting your whackjob links to other con blogs. It's not really worth my time trying to reason with insanity. Your refutations were the most ridiculous, long-winded collection of crap I've read since Jimbo's last (or every) post. Honestly I didn't even read it all. It reminded me of the proposals I've read in my work where the writer has nothing solid to say and just starts filling the page with words that may or may not form a cohesive thought.
It does seem that the people agree with my sources though, in that republicans were soundly defeated and the F&F-Barney Frank thing never gained traction for your people.
But let's give a few other reasons why republicans are responsible for this mess beyond the fact that they had TOTAL CONTROL OF THE GOVERNMENT FROM 2000-2007, the period when the bubble was forming.
1. The republican Congress, against the protestations of the democrats, repealed the over-55 rule which made flipping houses much more prevalent and profitable.
2. The republican Congress, on a conservative economic imperative, repealed the Glass-Steagall Act. Phil "stop whining" Gramm was one of the architects of that. This allowed banks to collude with Wall Street and the real estate industry to create the mess. The real estate industry was pushed to sell more mortgages so that Wall Street could package them and sell them after giving them fraudulent risk ratings. I would bet my last dollar that the people running those enterprises were of the republican persuasion.
2. Though F&F were a symptom of the mess they weren't the cause. F&F DO NOT MAKE LOANS. They were in competition with Wall Street to buy loans and that's why they lowered their standards. It wasn't due to the CRA. The CRA was passed in the 70s to address redlining by banks in the inner cities who were taking deposits from the working poor and not loaning to them. MOST OF THE SUBPRIME LOANS DID NOT INVOLVE THE CRA. That is a strawman for conservatives. IF you look at where the majority of defaults are occurring it is in the McMansion territory of new construction where the poor and minority that you people love to blame DON'T LIVE. How many articles will you reject that say the CRA was not a factor in this mess? And if you contend that it was, why wasn't it a problem from the 70s until now? Too easy to blame the poor, one of conservatism's oldest tricks. It's wrong and repugnant.
3. As for the regulation of F&F, Mike Oxley, a republican who was head of the House financial services committee at the time, tells the story this way:
The Ohio Republican who headed the House financial services committee until his retirement after mid-term elections last year, blames the mess [at Fannie and Freddie] on ideologues within the White House as well as Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve.
The critics have forgotten that the House passed a GSE reform bill in 2005 that could well have prevented the current crisis, says Mr Oxley, now vice-chairman of Nasdaq.
He fumes about the criticism of his House colleagues. “All the hand-wringing and bedwetting is going on without remembering how the House stepped up on this,” he says. “What did we get from the White House? We got a one-finger salute.”
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/one-finger-salute/
And from the Financial Times:
The House bill, the 2005 Federal Housing Finance Reform Act, would have created a stronger regulator with new powers to increase capital at Fannie and Freddie, to limit their portfolios and to deal with the possibility of receivership.
Mr Oxley reached out to Barney Frank, then the ranking Democrat on the committee and now its chairman, to secure support on the other side of the aisle. But after winning bipartisan support in the House, where the bill passed by 331 to 90 votes, the legislation lacked a champion in the Senate and faced hostility from the Bush administration.
Adamant that the only solution to the problems posed by Fannie and Freddie was their privatization, the White House attacked the bill. Mr Greenspan also weighed in, saying that the House legislation was worse than no bill at all.
Now go on. Reject all that proof and wrap yourselves in the blanket of ideology. It has served you so well so far.
I’d also like to address Annie’s contention that her experience in the world of finance makes her an expert on all things financial. You do realize that the people who created the faulty (or fraudulent) risk models, the people who engineering the messy CDOs and MBEs, were some of the brightest (allegedly) financial minds in the country, right? These were people educated at the University of Chicago, Stanford, etc etc and they FAILED in their jobs. Even the Great Republican PooBa Alan Greenspan admits that he is a classic f*ck-up.
The bottom line for me is that the REPUBLICANS CONTROLLED THE WHOLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHILE THE PROBLEM WAS DEVELOPING and did nothing to avert the crisis. Perhaps Abramoff was buying them off with money he squeezed from his clients. Or maybe those REPUBLICAN lobbying firms that were paid to target REPUBLICAN Senators to defeat and reforms of F&F had a lasting effect. Though I’m sure you have rejected the story from the Associated Press as being a liberal propaganda machine because it doesn’t support your skewed view of the world.
You can’t take credit for being in control of Congress from 94-07 and then pick and choose what you take credit or blame for.
As we look back on the causes of this meltdown, as the details are studied, you can expect that republicans will be blamed for their inattention and negligence in allowing for it to occur.
Uh oh. More bad news for the "let's blame the poor people" crowd. Another article showing Fannie & Freddie and the CRA as NOT being the cause of the econommic crisis.
Greenspan -- Flawed Ideology, Deregulation Cause of Collapse, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Only a Factor
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, long considered the icon of Free Market capitalism, testified yesterday before the House Oversight Committee on the causes of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Committee members, led by chairman Henry Waxman asked the 82 year old Greenspan a series of tough questions in an attempt to isolate "regulatory mistakes and misjudgments" leading up to the collapse. The result was a number of era-defining statements by Greenspan revealing the flaws of absolutist Free-Market capitalism and irresponsible deregulation of the financial system.
Not necessarily a source you're going to trust but the article does a good job of capturing the testimony of Greenspan and lays out a good explanation similar to the other links I posted. But then, since those weren't from FOX, NewsMax or World Net Daily, you didn't believe them either.
{sigh}
No reply. I guess it's hard to defend your position that somehow, with republicans in control of:
The White House
The Congress
The Supreme Court
The Federal Reserve
that democrats are responsible for the meltdown.
Oh yeah, if you want (or can) read a long, complicated article about how the pursuit of free-market conservatism-based capitalism destroyed America, read the newest issue of The New Yorker.
It backs up everything I said and adds a stinging indictment of the Fed's deregulatory, hands-off policy. But then, the Fed has been under the control of that evil conservative free marketeer for decades, Alan Greenspan.
Uh oh, Goober. More proof that republicans caused the financial crisi/ New Depression!
Bush administration ignored clear warnings
Under pressure from banking industry, U.S. government eased lending rules
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration backed off proposed crackdowns on no-money-down, interest-only mortgages years before the economy collapsed, buckling to pressure from some of the same banks that have now failed. It ignored remarkably prescient warnings that foretold the financial meltdown, according to an Associated Press review of regulatory documents.
“Expect fallout, expect foreclosures, expect horror stories,” California mortgage lender Paris Welch wrote to U.S. regulators in January 2006, about one year before the housing implosion cost her a job.
Bowing to aggressive lobbying — along with assurances from banks that the troubled mortgages were OK — regulators delayed action for nearly one year. By the time new rules were released late in 2006, the toughest of the proposed provisions were gone and the meltdown was under way.
But you people probably think it's a media conspiracy, right?
Still no responses.
Goober? Jimbo, honey? Cat gotcher tongue?
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