Given the following information, I would like for you to provide a judgment call on who is in the right and who is in the wrong here:
Given: Two countries who are at odds with each other. Both are legitimate, both have governments, etc and are recognized as countries by the United Nation, the United States, or any other reasonable metric one can assume. Lets call them Country A and Country B.
Given: Country A and Country B signed a peace agreement about a decade ago, which guaranteed that neither country would commit aggressive acts towards the other, nor would either country overtly or covertly support enemies of the other country.
Given: Country B received the peace accords amongst accolades and cheers, and has lived up to the conditions in those accords to the letter. They have enjoyed this decade of peace, and have made no moves, whatsoever, to breach this peace accord. Country A, on the other hand, held elections soon after this accord was signed, and its citizens elected by popular vote, a regime that was known for, and who’s sole purpose in existing is, to destroy and make war on Country B. As soon as they were elected, mere months after the accords were signed, they began to commit hostile acts against Country B, by launching rockets into Country B’s civilian enclaves (no, they were not targeting military installations) and killing, by all accounts, about 30 of Country B’s citizens over an 8 year period.
Given: Country B lived under more or less constant sporadic bombardment by Country A over the period of almost a decade, and took no actions other than diplomatic, to stop such action.
Given: The wording of the peace accolade specifically states that upon breach of that accolade (ie, a hostile act) the assailed country had the right to respond to those attacks in order to provide for it’s defense.
Is Country B justified in invading Country A to stop the attacks? Are their actions to be considered war crimes? Should the commanders of Country B’s military be held to account for war crimes in front of a military tribunal?
How can so many people so badly misread a situation and think that Israel (er, I mean, Country B) is the aggressor here? I have seen so many explanations by leftists, mainly, as to why they feel as though Israel is in the wrong. I’ll list a few:
1.) Israel’s response is disproportionate. They’ve killed hundreds, while the rocket attacks only killed about 30.
My response: How many Israelis must die before they can do something? What would you have them do? Set up rocket launchers on the border and launch only one rocket in return for every rocket fired? That is proportionate, but it would accomplish nothing. Rocket attacks would intensify, rocket technology would get better, and eventually, they would be pounding each other into the dirt, killing innocent civilians indiscriminately (as I assume the term “rocket” implies dumb, unguided munition, as opposed to “missile”) and causing untold horror and damage to the people of both countries. How would you like to live for a decade or more never sure when the Qassam is going to hit your house, or kil you children as they play in the schoolyard? No, a disproportionate response is the only response that will accomplish anything. A guy breaks into your house, and pulls a knife on you. You pull a gun. Disproportionate? Hell yes. But good policy if you wish to avoid giving your opponent and equal chance at killing you, and getting dragged into a horrible, bloody knife fight.
2.) Israel is killing innocent civilians.
My response: A horrible result of the elected government of Gaza having made the decision to start a fight with them, not a result of Israel’s bloodthirsty desire to kill civilians. Coupled with and made worse by the fact that HAMAS seems to love caching weapons in school gymnasiums, and setting up their command posts under daycare buildings, I see the civilian casualties as HAMAS’ crime, not Israel’s. Also, keep in mind that HAMAS has killed more Palestinians with their rockets than they have Israelis. I saw a stat that suggested that over 2,000 Palestinians have been injured by misfired or malfunctioning rockets that landed in Gaza instead of making it to Israel. If HAMAS really gave a crap about it’s innocents, then they would have stopped doing this, but they did not.
3.) Palestine is a small, nascent nation, and Israel is a big, powerful bully.
My response: The fact that it is easy to paint Palestine as the victim and Israel as the aggressor based simply upon their relative power and military might does not change the fact that Palestine attacked Israel, not the other way around. I liken this to a Chihuahua biting at a Rottweiler’s heels. It doesn’t hurt the Rottweiler for the most part; the biting is merely an annoyance. At first. Eventually, the Rottweiler tires of the Chihuahua’s antics, because even tiny bites eventually start to hurt when enough are applied, and soundly routes him, sending him ki-ying off to find solace in the master’s comforting pets. This entire line of liberal thought is about as fair as that master then punishing the Rottweiler for doing what he did. The Chihuahua wouldn’t have stopped if the Rottweiler asked him nicely. He wouldn’t have stopped if the Rottweiler growled at him angrily. He only stopped when the Rottweiler gave him an ass-kicking and sent him off to lick his wounds. This is exactly what is happening here. Israel is not a bully. They’ve shown remarkable restraint for about 8 years now, doing nothing in the name of maintaining peace.
But enough is enough. How this is hard to understand will never cease to surprise me. Israel is not doing anything wrong. If Mexico started lobbing rockets into Arizona, you can bet your ass we’d be in there by this weekend, with every one of the folks decrying Israel’s actions screaming bloody murder about how long it took to respond. I’ll bet if it was their children at risk of being bombed, or their families that were under constant fear of rocket attack for a decade, that every one of them would be outraged and want it to stop by any means necessary.
What say you?
39 comments:
Who is Country A?
Isreal is bombing Gaza. Gaza is NOT a country.
But it is... sort of... enough so that it counts... I guess.
Seriously, though, does that make a difference? They have an elected government. They are autonomous enough. I don't really see how they are anything other than a country.
It matters politically. If Gaza was an independant nation/state then other countries and the UN could send in "peace keeping" troops. (see African countries)
Also, as a nation, Gaza could have other nations as allies that they could form treaties with. Could you imagine if Gaza formed a treaty with China where China would come to their aid when they were attacked? Nobody wants that. That is why a "2-state solution" will never be allowed.
As they stand, the Palestinians have no international standing.
Israel is entitled to take any action it believes necessary to protect its citizens from harm from Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Iran and any other nation, movement, regime or junta dedicated to its destruction. The United States is the sole country with any political sway with the Israeli government due to our unwavering support through the years and our committment to continue to supply them with arms.
We [the US] allowed the war between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon to continue a couple of years ago in hopes that Israeli forces would destroy Hezbollah or convince what remains of the government of Lebanon to stop allowing Hezbollah to store munitions in and fire rockets into Israel from the Southern part of their country. Unfortunately, this strategy failed and the preception on the Arab Street was that Hezbollah had fought the premier military force in the Middle East to a standstill. I believe that fact has emboldened Hamas to undertake rocket attacks against Southern Israel.
I was listening to Talk of the Nation on NPR this morning and heard many voices call for the cessation of "israeli aggression in Gaza." Since the State of Israel has no formal written constitution in a single document but rather a set of Basic Laws, some critics aver that this has led to discrimination against Arabs and in favor of Jews. Other critics say that the need for a Jewish state has passed and thaT Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians. There are those in Israel who would disagree:
On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "Israel" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier. They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs.
The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.
When the 19 month war ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."
The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "short of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself.
The fact remains that the Arabs who left "to get out of the way" returned to find Jews living in their homes and tending their shops.
Oh, and...
It's simply a matter of time before Iran is successful in developing a nuclear weapon or buying one from some enterprising Russian or North Korean businessman. Then, like a child with a new toy, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, unable to contain his delight will launch a nuclear strike against Tel Aviv. The Israeli Prime Minister, probably Benjamin Netanyahu, of the right-wing Likud Party or maybe Tzipi Livni, of the Kadima Party will retailate in the blink of an eye. Israel bought two nuclear-capable submarines from Gremany a few years back which brought their total count of nuclear subs patroling the Red Sea, Persian Gulf and the Mediterranean to four. They will strike not only Tehran but in all probability [in my opinion] Damascus, Beirut and maybe, if we're [US forces] gone from there, Baghdad as well.
Then...
Armageddon!
Weeelll, Abu...
As my jewish son-in-law, Wild Bill, the NOLA jazz musician and CPA says, "You know how those Jews are."
um well, the premise is that as soon as IRAN has a nuke they will target Israel.
And then Israel will blast IRAN back into the stone age.
Unless Iran has 2 nukes (& if they did they would use both at the same time) or another Islamic country wants to drop one on Israel & also end up in the stone age,
Israel wins this scenario.
(not even Russia will launch against Israel in this scenario)
Israel has one city nuked & IRAN will be a parking lot when the radioactivity dies.
The middle east will glow for a while but Israel will survive.
Not a pretty picture but it is the predictable future.
& I still say you get more MPG from radioactive oil!
They never listened to me back when the Shah was deposed and the hostages were taken. I said, carpet nuke from Morocco to the Pakistan-Indian border. We lose a few citizens, but eliminate every moos-lamb loose cannon there is. Israel is also gone, but then, so is the Middle East problem. We also get 25 cent/gallon gas that glows in the dark.
The answer to the question of HOW MAN Jews must die, all of them.
And two minutes after that the MSM would find a way to blame America's lack of support.
Personally, I don't think that Israel will ever be destroyed by nukes. I have it on good authority that they'll be protected. Or should that be GOD authority?
That should have read HOW MANY.
"On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." "
With UN support and backing. Don't forget that. Also, the historic State of Palestine (British held) was Jordan, Syria, and Israel. The Brits gave 3/4 of Palestine to the Arabs, and left 1/4, about what is today Israel, to the Jews. There already are two Arab Palestinian states. They're called Jordan, or Syria. Most "palestinians" were actually Jordanians, living in a Jordanian territory,until Jordan decided to attack Israel and Israel "occupied" this territory (west bank).
Keep in mind, the PLO was created in 1964. THe idea that these folks were Palestinians was not put forth until 1967. Before then, they were Jordanians. After the 1967 war, they suddenly found this ancient identity as palestinians and fought for freedom, but the fact that the PLO was created in 1967 when the West Bank inhabitants were jordanians means nothing if it does not mean that this entire conflict is a result of Arabs hating Jews so much that they won't share even a fourth of their territory with them. 3/4 isn't enough. THey want it all. The PLO was created with the intent to kill all Jews. How the F someone could take from this that Israel is the big bully... well, i just don't get it.
And as far as them taking over the shops and homes, can you blame them? How much sanctity would you put int he home of a guy that wants you dead and left so his brethren could kill you?
Those who voted for hamas are not so innocent. They are complicent. They are enablers. And yet they are still treated relatively well by the Israelis under all the aforementioned circumstances.
and to Abu:
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.
shops and homes? it was desert! No shops, no homes.
Sand and more sand.
And I suppose the 5500 years of Hebrew history attached to this land was made up after 1948?
That is absolutely right, Goob. You have a great understanding of Middle East history.
Also: In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed twice, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had their "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now West of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.
Which part don't you understand and needs explaining? It seems you have a pretty knowledgeable basis in which to come to your conclusions.
But logic isn't something the arabs, europeans, mooslambs, parasites and leftists embrace.
"Logic is a little bird tweeting in the meadow.
Logic is a bunch of flowers that smell bad."
Israel (and the US) should have eliminated Iran a long time ago, (gutless, peanut-brain Carter had the chance and blew it) since it was, and continues to be, the main supporter of terrorism in the middle east. Also, had G.W. Nitwit attacked Iran instead of Iraq, the middle east would now be a much more stable place.
Most people with an understanding of the ME realize that we'll have to fight Iran sooner or later. (they are not a govt. that's interested in any type of negotiations) If it's later, that means nuclear war. They've spent years "playing for time" with only one intention, to get a nuke which will make them a major world player. And then, as they say, the price of poker will really go up!
Short of a preemptive strike by Israel and/or us, the only other hope is to try and create civil unrest and revolt against the govt., something many say is quite doable.
Ever wonder if Goober actually talks as much as he writes? Poor Mrs. Goober.
"Isreal is bombing Gaza. Gaza is NOT a country'
No Gaza is a haven for terrorists just as Al Queda has its training grounds. Total inhilation is needed.
Nuke'm.
all.
Nuke'm
Nuke'm
5500 years??? Because the OT says so? By your theory, the Mormons should be able to kick everybody out of the Americas because God gave it to them in 600BC.
100 years ago the land now called Isreal was 90% Arab. And it was that way for a 1000 years before that. You seem to know a lot bout what the Arabs did to the Jews but nothing of the atrocities committed by the Jews proir to '47. King David Hotel?
I'm not saying that Hamas has the right to kill anybody. All terrorist should be hung or shot or both. I want peace. But you people are so far up Isreal's ass its comical. You claim to know history but you only know one side. We all know that the victor, in this case Isreal, writes the history.
Abu, you lying used pigs tampon. you want to kill all infidels.
And I want to kill you and EVERY LAST MUSLIM.
"It's back"!!!!
r u HLF or his lover?
Owah Tigu Suhar:
You have my permission to drop dead. You are an ignorant, worthless, sub-human piece of shit. You do not even belong in this galaxy.
You don't have an argument so you just name call!
I'm not a muslim you idiots.
Go ahead and wipe your ass with the koran. At least you'll be wiping with with something you hillbilly. Why don't you brush your tooth while you're at it?
Owah Tigu Suhar?? WTF?? I have no idea what that means.
Iss'kay y'may ass'ay
HAHA! If an Isreali told you the sky was green you would respond with "It does have kinda a greenish tint doesn't it"
Followers...
The reality:
I understand that my comments will be considered anti-Semetic by some, (certainly not intended) but so is almost anything said about jews that they don't like.
What is America's fascination with Israel about? What do we get from them? Is it simply because they are the only "friend" we have in the region? But how many friends would we have in the Middle East if not for our relationship with Israel? Or is it because of the inordinate amount of political power that American jews have?
In the last five "major" espionage cases, where spies were found to be spying on the US, and did so much damage that the people can't even be told about it, it was proven that they were spying for Israel.
Because they are human and your friends are not
Kind David Hotel
Oh, I don't prentend to think that there were never or are never any acts being committed by Jews that are unsavory or ugly. That was never my point, and the idea that the Israelis are somehow clean or innocent never crossed my lips.
Israeli settlers in many of these areas have not been very good nieghbors, to put it mildly.
However, for every Jewish atrocity committed by a fringe group, I can show you three hundred arab atrocities committed by the mainstream with the express support of either a provisional authority or a nation state. This entire ordeal is a big, ugly mess.
However, I have said in the past and I will say again, while this is no justification for committing horrible atrocities like the King David Hotel bombing against the Brits back in '46, if the Arabs in the area would choose to peacefully coexist, as opposed to upholding and perpetuating the mantra of "death to the Jews", there would be no more atrocities from either side. This entire debacle is caused by, and is solely the fault of, the Arab people in that area. If they drop the intifada, then we will have peace for as long as they do so.
Can you argue that point?
Ever wonder if Goober actually talks as much as he writes? Poor Mrs. Goober.
I talk even more than i write, but don't lose any sleep worrying about Mrs. Goober. She has no interest whatsoever in any of the things I talk about, so I've learned a long time ago, for her sake, to leave her out of it. Possibly why i ramble on here so much, I'm deprived at home...
JJGR could top off his tank Annie.
How went your docs appointment, Snorphty?
Annie,
You and others on this site would just call any information I post lies. I recommend you do some research yourself with an open mind if you have that ability.
And its also funny how you question my maturity when other do nothing but name calling, insults and threats.
hlf, abu, whatthefuq?
you win the PutzPuller Prize for fiction
"As far as others insulting you, I should well imagine that they are responding in the manner with which you treat them and their opinions while posting under several different names."
Please tell me where anything rude I said wasn't in response to an insult.
I seem to remember an old saying about "dishing it out"...
"you win the PutzPuller Prize for fiction"
Thank you!
I graciously accept this award on behalf of historians and journalists everywhere!
So...How about enlightening us about yusef, then?
"AKH said... "
That's the sound my cat makes when it pukes
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